Traveller-digest     Thursday, August 26 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1022



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Orion Drive Modules
Re: Orion Drive Modules
Re: Bureaucrats (was re: Puzzling Sig)
Re: Another look at aliens
Re: Missing Fleets of the Imperial Navy.
Re: Duplicate Fleets of The Imperium.
Re: Orion Drive Modules
Re: Streamlining
Fusion Plants
Re: Duplicate Fleets of The Imperium.
Re: 101 Starships
Re: 101 Starships
Re: 101 Starships
Re: Orion Drive Modules
Re: Fusion Plants
Re: Marc Miller's website?
Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft
Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft
Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft
Re: 101 Starships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:41:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Orion Drive Modules

In mail you write:

>>Why would you use *water* for this purpose?  Why not freon?  And besides,
>>wouldn't the graphite 'blast shield' deflect the heat away from the plate?
>
>
> I can drink water. (And breathe the vapour without *too* much trouble.)
> Freon I'm not so fond of. A hige steam cloud over the landing pad doesn't
> cause many environmental problems. That's assuming a world with a
> breatheable atmosphere to start with, of course.
>
> Graphite's also not the best thing to make a blast shield out of. Graphite's
> most important property is its softness (lubrication, pencils, etc). Not
> something I'd want to be shooting high speed rocket efflux over for any
> length of time. They're probably expensive to replace.

Actually, graphite's most important properties in industry are
electrical conductivity, and *high* temperature resistance. It's solid
at some *really* outrageous temperatures.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:44:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Orion Drive Modules

In mail you write:

> Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>> An interesting description of an Orion drive was in "Footfall" and then 
> one
>>>> was shown in "Deep Impact".
>>>
>>>Or, for a less spectacular (non-nuclear) variant, there's the
>>>explosive-shell craft in _King David's Spaceship_.
>>
>>Hm. Could one of our friendly neighbourhood physists provide some
>>calculations for this, in terms of (say) kilos of TNT. Might be fun to whip
>>up a few designs.
>
> I haven't read KDS; if it tries to use explosives it carries
> up with itself, then the specific impulse is lousy.  TNT has Isp(vacc)
> of around 190 or so; good non-hydrogen (LOX/Kerosene, Tetroxide/Hydrazine)
> liquid fuel engines get up to 340, good 'conventional' solids get up
> to 310 or so, and hydrogen/oxygen burners get up to 460.

Actually, the design was even weirder. It used the equivalent of a
vulcan cannon (possible several of them) as a drive. I asume that was
what was feeding the explosives out the back.

As I understand it, the basic problem was that our heros needed to get
a manned craft into orbit by a specific date. With technology
equivalent to the 1930s. They had obtained the contents of a First
Empire technical library, but they didn't have time to build most of
the required infrastructure. 

They needed to get into orbit so that they would be admitted into the
Second Empire as a "spacefaring" planet, rather than "planetbound". As
I dimly recall, the latter was about as much fun as being a native of
the Belgian Congo. The former had some rights.

> You can get a pretty good tankage fraction out of an explosive kick
> vehicle as the explosives are solid and don't need a tank (just some
> sort of aeroshell, mostly).  Getting to a mass ratio of 10 might be
> practical, which would get you around 4,300 m/s.  I don't know what
> orbital velocity was on the KDS world, but that's not enough for
> most habitable planets...

Note that the ship was built to get to orbit only. They relied on the
presence of the Imperial ship in orbit to get the pilot back down. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:53:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bureaucrats (was re: Puzzling Sig)

In mail you write:

>>> At 22:25 22/08/1999 -0400, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>"Wow, that's a pretty primitive writing tool, I've never seen one before.
>>>>Can I borrow one of yours to fill out these forms?"
>>>>...bureaucrat hands over a "Request to borrow writing implement form".
>>>>"Ummm, what do I use to fill *this* out?"
>>>>"Ball-point pen. All official forms must be filled out in ball-point
> pen."
>>>>...pan camera to smoke wafting gently out the PC's ears....
>>
>>I'd be tempted to whisper something into my com-link and then stand
>>there patiently until someone from the ship arrived. At which point I'd
>>take the bundle they were carrying, flip thru it, and hand the
>>bureaucrat some choice forms. Such as "request for permission for
>>business related data", "request for permision for personal data" (such
>>as name), "monetary reimbursement forms (with a rate for filling out
>>paperwork), etc, etc.
>>
>>A "properly" written "AI" program can come up with "logical" stuff that
>>will make even the most hardened bureaucrat cringe.
>
> Ahh, but it wouldn't be on official paper, the layout wouldn't conform to
> regulations, the form doesn't exist on the authorised database etc etc ad
> infinitum / nauseum.
>
> After all, to any bureaucrat worth his pension, the *only* bureaucracy the
> exist is the one he/she/it is in.  Any attempt to get them to sign *an
> offworlder's* (shudder) documentation will simply result in being presented
> with a application form for an appointment with the bureau of
> xenobureaucracy.
>
> Your post has been lodged with the appropriate authorities and will be
> considered carefully before rejection.

Ok, time to drag out the heavy artillery.

"Whatever you say, Mr. ???. I'll be sure and let the Governor know that
you are why his shipment of wines went sour..."

When visting known high bureaucracy planets *always* carry an item of
cargo for someone who will be "annoyed" if it is delayed by
bureaucrats. Preferably, their boss. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:03:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Another look at aliens

In mail you write:

>>My interest stems in part from a strong personal bias toward truly
>>_alien_ aliens -- the kind that have to be treated as "black boxes" to
>>use as NPC's, and can't be used as PC's at all. My point is that, while
>>biology is not destiny, supposing biology has /no/ effect on
>>relationships between alien species is just as likely to result in
>>fallacy and "humans-with-bumpy-foreheads-and-funny-noses" as
>>overgeneralizing them.
>
>         While I am often lazy enough to use HWBFAFN aliens, I also
>         like to have truely alien aliens.  You are absolutely right
>         that our behaviour is intimately influenced by our biology,
>         probably much more than most humans would like to believe.
>         The way that I approach this is to think about the evolution
>         of the alien, paying attention to the patterns of behaviour
>         that were likely to be favoured.  This does not mean that
>         Vargr will act like wolves any more than humans will act like
>         chimps, but we do act a lot like chimps.  At least, my family
>         does.

There's a lot to be said for hitting players with truly "alien" *human*
cultures. One good example is Donald Kingbury's "Courtship Rite". There
are a few other SF stories that use good antropology as a basis. And
they'll drive your players *nuts*. After all, these people are *human*
"surely they must xxxx". Well surprise, surely they must not. :-)

People "expect" aliens to react oddly. They don't expect it from
"fellow humans". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:43:02 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Missing Fleets of the Imperial Navy.

> From: Clifford N Linehan <
> I was wondering if anyone knows the classic Traveller sector / subsector
> locations for the following numbered fleets of the Imperial navy.
> 
> 118th
> 131st
> 189th
> 303rd

If we ask the Vargr nicely, they might give them back!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:54:45 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Duplicate Fleets of The Imperium.

> From: Clifford N Linehan 
> Does anyone know the reason why nine of the fleets are located in more
> than one subsector, with some of the locations being sectors apart.
> I am impressed by the 213th fleet being located in three seperate sectors
> at once.

There are a couple of possibilities.  One, obviously, is that different
elements of the fleets are in different areas.  

The other one is that the IN's organisation is not entirely rational.  The
IN has been around for centuries, with units being raised by various
leaders, at various times, through civil wars, and in states that were
subsequently absorbed by the Imperium.  Most of the effects of this would
appear at the squadron level, where there are probably lots of "1st Battle
Squadrons", and, no doubt, "101st Battle Squadrons" too.  It seems less
likely that you would get multiple numbered fleets through this kind of
process, but it could happen, I suppose.

A hybrid of the two cases could occur too, where the detachments from a
parent fleet could themselves be reinforced so as to become as large as a
normal subsector fleet.  This could well have happened centuries ago, and
the task forces detached from the 213rd fleet could have been used as
"real" fleets ever since.

In other words, make up a story!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 01:16:42 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Orion Drive Modules

>>something I'd want to be shooting high speed rocket efflux over for any
>> length of time. They're probably expensive to replace.
>
>Actually, graphite's most important properties in industry are
>electrical conductivity, and *high* temperature resistance. It's solid
>at some *really* outrageous temperatures.


Sure, but wouldn't you want to coat it with something either a) tough, so it
wouldn't wear as fast as soft graphite or b) ablative and cheap?

NB

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Streamlining

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> Ok, try this on for size. At 20 mph, it's going to take your ship 5-10
> hours *each way* to go from the top of the atmosphere to the ground.
> That *alone* is expensive. 

Not really.  First of all, you can probably safely go 50 mph.  Secondly, the atmosphere gets thin fairly quickly, at 20 miles you're at 1% of normal atmosphere and can probably go 500 mph, at 40 miles you're in functionally 'trace' atmosphere and can safely move at a significant fraction of orbital speed.  probably go as fast as you want.  Call it an hour each way, and that's being careful.
> 
> Also, at 20 mph weather, such as storms, moves a *lot* faster than your
> ship can dodge. Since weather is a chaotic system, the Imperium won't
> be able to predict it any better than we can. So you could easily start
> a descent (or a takeoff) and a couple of hours later find yourself in
> the path of a squall line that was "supposed" to be nowhere near you.
> Or trying to dodge a jetstream.

We can predict weather an hour ahead plenty accurately.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:14:27 +1000
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Fusion Plants

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In Gurps Traveller, the fusion plants are larger and less efficiant than in
MT/FFS1.

This is rather anoying, as even toasters had fusion in Traveller (I am
joking). In 101 Vehicles (a great GDP product) at High tech levels only
realy small vehicals used fuel cells or other power sources. BD's , FGMP
and PGMP all where fusion powered.(I have ignored Fusion Plus, for while I
worship Greg Porter as Gaming God (tm) F+ was not Traveller)

I have calculated the Fusion plants for GT (FFS1 and MT have the same
stats). Conversions may be wrong, let me know if it is>

(Embedded image moved to file: pic08870.pcx)

Darryl
Visit our Web Site : http://www.ParraCity.nsw.gov.au

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- --0__=z5izYxqWdYWzjfKiJOCZYn2OvS6iwg2E5z8cMqGmxSowuus3KFbRNUI5--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:25:27 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicate Fleets of The Imperium.

>>Does anyone know the reason why nine of the fleets are located in more
>>than one subsector, with some of the locations being sectors apart.
>>I am impressed by the 213th fleet being located in three seperate sectors
>>at once.
>
> So were the Vargr. ;-)

Which begs the question, how many of these reports are propaganda? ;)

But seriously, could they be different times?
BZA
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:20:12 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships

From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships


>>> The Sharlin class Merchant Tender
>The concept specified is very similar to the LASH tender design in Far
Trader
>(i.e. can carry many 800 DT lighters, or SDBs).


    I did not know that, thank you John.  This idea came to me from
BattleTech & a TL-11 MT game I ran.

>>What would be the economic benefit from building such a ship?
>
>The authors of Far Trader thought it was an economic design, and that
should be
>good enough for most! The operational logistics described in FT certainly
make
>sense.


    Well, the idea makes sense.  If a 100K dTon Battle-Rider are better than
a 100K dTon Battleship, then why not use the same system for merchant
shipping?

>We had a discussion on this and other aspects of FT a while back, which
resolved
>to this being a very economic design. The only minor dispute was over
whether
>the carried craft should be streamlined or unstreamlined. USL made more
sense
>purely from the figures, SL may be required logistically.


    I would have to say, SL.  As they will have to land on a planet.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:26:03 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships

From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships

>I would add one other thing.  I would move the number of carried craft from
>5 to 6 and add two couplings capable of handling standard 30kt
>battleriders.  This would give the ship the potential to earn a subsidy
>from the system/subsector/sector/domain/or Imperial government as an armed
>auxiliary.  Instead of jumping a battle tender into a system just to drop
>off one or two riders for picket duty, you use one of these converted
>merchants.


    That is a great idea.  What about being able to carry 6 10K dTon
Merchant Riders, 3 10K dTon Merchant Riders & 1 30K dTon Battle-Riders, or 2
30K dTon Battle-Riders?  This way in wartime, a Merchant Tender could carry
some cargo & be well protected.  Think of the Vargr Commerce Raider who
attacks this ship & meets up with a 30K dTon Battle-Rider.  *weg*

>Kurt Feltenberger
>
>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
>    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
>      ~Stephen Decatur


    Kurt, one question about your quote.  Did you ever go to Stephen Decatur
High School, in Decatur, IL?

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:27:40 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships

From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships


>"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> writes:
>>    "I say, my lord, Auric, did you see Baron Moony's wife last night in
the
>>arms of that young Count Legate?  I hear they spent the night together."
>
>!!!!!!


    *weg*  Sorry, but your name was the first one to pop into my head when I
needed a name.

>You're talking a Guild Highliner here from Dune, but one where people can
>meet. Bruce Johnson has one called the Majesta class on his website.


    Thank you.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Orion Drive Modules

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> Sure, but wouldn't you want to coat it with something either a) tough, so
> it wouldn't wear as fast as soft graphite or b) ablative and cheap?

Against nuclear weapons, graphite _is_ really tough.  It requires an enormous quantity of energy and very high temperatures to vaporize (weight for weight, many times higher than steel), it mostly isn't bothered by neutrons, and it conducts heat extremely well.  Incidentally, against lasers, macrocrystalline graphite (with the planes aligned flat on the surface) would be wonderful armor, it's incredibly hard to vaporize, and would conduct heat away from the impact point very fast while conducting quite poorly through the armor.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:40:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion Plants

dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au writes:
> In Gurps Traveller, the fusion plants are larger and less efficiant than in
> MT/FFS1.
They're larger.  Not sure if they're less efficient, they run 10 megawatts per ton.
> 
> This is rather anoying, as even toasters had fusion in Traveller (I am
> joking). In 101 Vehicles (a great GDP product) at High tech levels only
> realy small vehicals used fuel cells or other power sources. BD's , FGMP
> and PGMP all where fusion powered.(I have ignored Fusion Plus, for while I
> worship Greg Porter as Gaming God (tm) F+ was not Traveller)

Define a Vehicle NPU as being a microfusion plant.
> 
> I have calculated the Fusion plants for GT (FFS1 and MT have the same
> stats). Conversions may be wrong, let me know if it is>

Missing stats here, of course.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:41:04 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's website?

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FarFuture/">Traveller Page</A> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:50:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft

Thomas Schoene writes:

> This is going to be covered in some detail in GT: Starships, along with
> some other cans of worms (lesser forms of streamlining, for example). One
> suggestion that looks likely to be adopted is that the Imperium is early to
> mid TL12, so advanced TL12 armor may not be available for large
> constructions like starships.

Incidentally, in response to this: I redid the Intrepid without advanced armor. Resulting stats are: price $11.7 MCr.  Weight 379,490, LWt 380,315.  DR F6/18,000, sides,top,bottom 4/6,000, cupola 4/3,000.  For $12.8 MCr it has standard laminate armor instead.  No stats other than those listed are affected.  

I also have a _serious_ rewrite of the Astrin -- it is, correctly, TL 14, and has been redesigned as an IFV instead of an APC, with better stealth and substantial increases to electronics, firepower ,and threat protection. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:56:25 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft

...
>Remember that we're trying to model CT here, not min-max GURPS Vehicles.

  So rather than using Striker & CT, you're developing an entire separate
system and trying to retroactively bug-fix it? What are you, some kind of
Mac user or something?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:01:33 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: GT Armor - Cheaper Merchants, Faster Combat Craft

> Why is efficient GT design upsetting CTers?  I don't see complaints about
> efficient CT design.

I am not upset, and I love CT. But I am a heretic...

GURPs is a "core" system, not a "meliuex", and you aren't supposed to put
/all/ of it into a single campaign unless you are playing a Rifts type game.
This is not to say I object to putting a lot of "goodies" in, but care needs
to be taken. I would not implement every tech application I added into every
culture for one thing. Some might be _completely_ off-limits, and others
used only in economically feasible circumstances. This last thought comes
from an "electro-laser" I saw in a GURPs book once. I can't recall which
book. I don't even know if it is possible, but even the rules limit its use
to arid environments. Other bits may move up or down the TL scale, or need
the rules tweaked to fit Sacred Canon. Heresies are then up to Individual
TU's, and should be noted IMTU. This does not mean it can't be discussed,
IMHO, but it should not be /assumed/ that all tech in GURPs is available,
that is against the precepts of the system. GURPs is cogs and sprockets,
Traveller is a specific machine.
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:08:15 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships

At 05:26 PM 8/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>Subject: Re: 101 Starships
>
> >I would add one other thing.  I would move the number of carried craft from
> >5 to 6 and add two couplings capable of handling standard 30kt
> >battleriders.  This would give the ship the potential to earn a subsidy
> >from the system/subsector/sector/domain/or Imperial government as an armed
> >auxiliary.  Instead of jumping a battle tender into a system just to drop
> >off one or two riders for picket duty, you use one of these converted
> >merchants.
>
>
>     That is a great idea.  What about being able to carry 6 10K dTon
>Merchant Riders, 3 10K dTon Merchant Riders & 1 30K dTon Battle-Riders, or 2
>30K dTon Battle-Riders?  This way in wartime, a Merchant Tender could carry
>some cargo & be well protected.  Think of the Vargr Commerce Raider who
>attacks this ship & meets up with a 30K dTon Battle-Rider.  *weg*

My thoughts exactly!

> >Kurt Feltenberger
> >
> >"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
> >    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
> >      ~Stephen Decatur
>
>
>     Kurt, one question about your quote.  Did you ever go to Stephen Decatur
>High School, in Decatur, IL?

Nope.  I did a fairly extensive thesis on him for a college history 
prof.  I liked the quote, and figured that it would be a nice jab at all 
the liberals who seem to think that we should bend over and spread 'em for 
any two bit tinpot despot.

Kurt
(Who is convinced that if he were elected President of the USA, that he 
would not live out his first term!)

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
      may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1022
***********************************

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